May 6 Commitee Meeting
13 years ago
Sunday, February 7, 2010
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Blog for the MCA Mountain Bike Committee to discuss issues regarding MCA sanctioned mountain bike racing in Manitoba.
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Sounds good to me.
ReplyDeleteMy only comment is we need to make it clear to all racers that they can not change categories at races and they must make a formal request a to change categories. (Like Kevin Millar did last year, we had some people changing categories last year with NO formal requests to change).
ReplyDeleteI'd like to make a motion to have this ALWAYS done at the end of each race season, so people know what they are doing for the next year.
ReplyDeleteTelling them that they are moving, after they have bought their licence in the spring is the WRONG time In my opinion.
And I agree with Kevin, you should only be able to race what it says on the licence.,, otherwise, when I'm tired, I'm racing U15.
Re: request to change categories. They only need to provide a written request to move down a category during the season. Technically at the beginning of each year an individual can register in whichever category they wish with respect to their age. They can always move up during the race season, but can only move down after a written request to the committee and the chief commissaire (and be approved). This would be enforced at the commissaire level at each race.
ReplyDeleteMoni
So... the MCA has no say in what category you sign up as?
ReplyDeleteJust making sure here.
I believe the intention is that you are supposed to return to the previous category from the year before.
ReplyDeleteYou also need to apply to move up (if you don't meet the criteria), not just to move down. Same either way.
But we have not communicated these things with the racers the last few years.
I know that sounded wrong coming from me..
ReplyDeleteI am going to race elite this year, if notified that I should... (no problems with that), just what I'm getting at is that I, or anyone, has not been notified yet... have they?
If someone wasn't part of these meetings, they would have no idea... so I figured letting them know we would like them to move up, or down, would be best done asap.
And I do not know all the rules, that's why I'm asking.
Right, the intention is that you would register in the same category as the previous year, but in the instance you have been out of racing for a few years and feel you are a sport racer - that is where you should register.
ReplyDeleteKevin are you sure you have to get permission to move up? Is this a MTB committee thing or a MTB CCA rule? I only recall requiring permission to move down. I know we (commissaires) have revceived letters for juniors who flip flop categories b/w MB and National Cups, where their license says their appropriate category and they have a letter indicating they race either up or down.
Moni
It seems like we need to come to a consensus on this. I can not find the guiding document on this and will need to look at some older files. We'll make this an agenda item for the March meeting.
ReplyDeleteAbout permission to move up, my concern is that Racers currently just walk up to the Reg Table and decide to change right there. They currently don't know how to change. But then they also think they can move down the same way (it happened last year).
ReplyDeleteI think for the sake of consistency, during the season, a racer should need to apply either way, up or down. That way it is consistent.
Let a racer decide to move up during the season without EARNING the move up could create other issues as well. Moving up to an empty category to win the overall for one. Another would be moving UP when skill and fitness are not really at the higher Category level.
My concerns are with consistency mainly.
So to answer your questions Moni (finally), I can't recall reading any CCA documents stating this, but I am pretty sure our counter parts in other provinces control who move up. But obviously none of us (you or me) are 100% clear, so I would suggest we need to make it clear.
OK - back to moving up or down categories.
ReplyDeleteCCA - no info I can find on their site, the only document seems to be the Companion Guide, it does not have info about moving up or moving down.
UCI - The Mountain Bike Race document also does not have any guidelines.
Ontario, Alberta and Sask have the most comprehensive websites, so I looked there.
Ontario - They control moving Up and Down. Please review the first section of the following page.
http://www.ontariocycling.org/web_pages/mem_uci_licences.php
Alberta - They also control moving Up and Down. Please review this page, I have pasted the specific details that apply below if you don't want to read the entire page.
http://www.albertabicycle.ab.ca/id/661?secondary_id=
About moving down
6.1 Riders may request a category downgrade – any downgrades will be made at the discretion of the Racing Committee.
About moving up (without meeting the criteria)
c) Upgrades for riders lacking sufficient points or results will be considered only in exceptional circumstances; riders wishing such an upgrade may apply in writing to the Racing Committee, and are asked to provide supporting documentation with their request. Such upgrades are made at the sole discretion of the Racing Committee.
Sasketchewan - They also control moving Up and Down in writing as well.
From their website
http://www.saskcycling.ca/mountain.html
If you believe that you should be upgraded or downgraded in your racing category, you must provide a letter to the High Performance Committee outlining your request.
So, CCA & UCI says nothing that I can find, Ontario, Alberta and Sask do clearly control both.
Thanks for your time.
Points systems are there to control the movement of riders. In previous years we have had riders who self selected to be in Elite, but were getting lapped by the experts and rarely completing a race (this applies to road as well). We have had sport riders who would be effectively placing in the middle of the Expert Cat (this is what started the whole issue). Whether they are sand baggers or eager beavers I believe having a points system addresses the issues fairly and (reasonably) objectively. I also believe the points system can cover movement in both directions. If your fail then you move down, and if you continually succeed you move up. Riders should always be allowed to apply or challenge. The dictates of a race may not be accurately reflected by the result (e.g., technical issues, illness etc). For this system to work well the committee needs to be hyper vigilant in tracking the rides (i.e., not just before the beginning of each season). I believe this can work, and work well, but not everyone will be pleased with the Cat they are placed in. Finally, I think to begin with, you have to race at least one race in the sport/citizen Cat if you have never raced. You can be moved up from there to the appropriated Cat based on performance (e.g., comparative lap times). Like Greg, I suggest these notifications go out ASAP.
ReplyDeletePart 1: Hal asked that I put my two cents in for this discussion as i've dealt with this in other provinces. It seems that the discussion here generally agrees that we need some system for tracking rider’s categories. Here is what I have to suggest:
ReplyDelete1) Categories and criteria is regulated by the PSO, not the CCA or the UCI. It is up to the PSO to determine what category criteria athletes must meet in order to be in each category. This is why each PSO has slightly different criteria to match the needs of their membership.
2) Riders should not be able to select their category, it should be determined by the PSO criteria. There are too many riders in Manitoba who are sand bagging in categories that is beneath their abilities.
3) Upgrading to a higher category should not be viewed as a form of punishment for a rider, as seems to be my impression with many riders in Manitoba. Athletes train so that they are competitive and should be racing against other riders of the same ability. We shouldn't be encouraging riders to sandbag and beating weaker riders that they shouldn't be competing against the first place. Should also not allow weaker riders to go into categories that are beyond their ability and have not worked their way up. An eager beaver wouldn't race elite outside the province, so why should they be doing it in the province.
4) Upgrades are not just about that specific individual rider, but the category that rider is not upgrading themselves from. By upgrading riders to higher categories, this gives other riders in that category the opportunity to continue to be competitive and have incentive to continue to train and aim for the next category. If good riders never upgrade and continue to take points, how do other riders get enough points or confidence to move up themselves. It also makes it impossible for these other riders to ever have a chance at winning the Series and getting the series jersey at the end of the year, not to mention it allows the lower end of a category to continually get creamed by a rider who shouldn't be in that category sand bagging.
5) Once a rider is in a category, they cannot upgrade or downgrade themselves unless done through permission of the committee. This could be the category they are in the current season, last year or 10 years ago. The category that a rider finishes a season in is the same category that they start the next season in.
6) A rider who has been out of racing for a few years, or athletes who don't feel that they can train to be competitive at their current category, can request that the committee grant them a downgrade.
7) Permission of a upgrade/downgrade should be done by the committee, not a commissaire. The commissaire's role is to enforce race rules/policies as dictated by the PSO committee, CCA or UCI. It is not a commissaire's role to make decisions such as race categories. This is the role of the committee.
8) A rider that earns an upgrade based on whatever criteria set by the committee, or receives committee approval for an upgrade/downgrade should be able to get a new license printed by the MCA at no charge. When I was in Alberta, it was exciting to get a new licence in the mail so that you could finally race in that upper category that you had been training so hard to get to. This will be a minimal number of licenses that need to be reprinted by the MCA as a service to the athletes who are earned an upgrade for their success. A change in license can happen at any time during the season or at the start of the next season.
CONTINUED IN PART 2 .....
PART 2 ....
ReplyDelete9) Upgrade Criteria. This should be as simple as possible so the membership can understand how things work, but also easy for the committee to keep track of. I would suggest one of two options: a) Points System. Give points in a descending for top 20 positions, must reach X points to upgrade, regardless of what places you get those points from. Higher categories require more points to upgrade. Points should only be counted from current year and previous year, so only currently active riders are earning the upgrades. Very clear for people to understand and know what they need to do to upgrade, but requires a lot of tracking by committee; b) Win & Podium Finish - Example could be one of the following combination of results: 2 wins or 1 win plus 2 other top-3 placings or 5 top-3 placings. This is easy to track as only need to worry about top 5 positions, not entire field or deep of points. c) for either system, we should also include a clause that includes a time factor, such that a rider who meets the points or podium criteria must also be competitive at the next higher level. This could be something like their average lap times must be in the top half of the next higher category. This prevents riders of weaker lower categories from diluting the upper categories and keeps those upper categories competitive.
10) Series Points. Transfer points from old cateogry to new higher category. Allow riders to take their cup points with them to the higher categories. This removes reasons for riders to sandbag in lower categories. When I was in Alberta, riders could only take half their points with them. I suggest that the points you earn be back on a weighted scale, such that higher categories earn more points than lower categories. For example, Sport category has position points multiplied by a factor of 1, expert by a factor of 2 and elite by a factor of 3. This is easy to keep track of but allows those riders coming from expert to elite to bring all their points and not just walk in a jump into 1st place with points in elite. An elite race is harder so elite riders should earn more cup points compared to an expert rider who gets all their points in expert and then moves into elite later in the season. This only effects riders switching between categories.
11) Youth Riders. The only exception that I would suggest to committee upgrades is riders who are part of the provincial programs. Not open to all youth, just provincial program members. My suggestion is that these kids who are part of the provincial program are under constant supervision and the provincial program committee / provincial coach has a better idea of what category those kids need to be racing in to prepare them for major events they will be participating in such as nationals, canada games, etc. They would still get points like everyone else, but would be upgraded at the discretion of the provincial program, not the mtb or road committees. Of course, those committees would be notified. The reasoning for this is that the race season in Manitoba is so short and we don't have many races to use to prepare athletes for the level of competition that they will face outside the province. So these athletes will need to be racing in categories that are able to prepare them for those events in a short time frame. If they need to meet the upgrade criteria, they will never get to their appropriate category in the limited time frame available and miss those critical training opportunities.
Regarding Jason's Post - All points, I agree 100%.
ReplyDeleteIn a perfect world, riders would move up (and down) when necessary, but many don't as Jayson already communicated. I agree, it is probably necessary to take a little more control in placing racers. But can we keep on top of this?
To Clarify Points 9 and 10 - We are already basically doing exactly this, for Cup race results. Here is what the Criteria we have been using say (using the new 2010 points). I have been tracking the Top racers in each Cat the last couple of years, and notifying the MTB Chair when someone has qualified to move up.
Here is the current Criteria - it includes Points and Average Lap Time.
Men’s Criteria
• 66 Cup Points accumulated within the last 3 races, not counting DNF results.
- Results will be tracked & carried over from season to season (to move up racers who do not participate on a regular basis).
- Manitoba Cup Points gained within the current season will be worth 70% in the next higher category if moved up during the same season.
• Average Lap Times that are competitive in the next higher category.
- Competitive lap times must be within the top 70% of the “competitive” racers in the next higher category in those 3 races.
- If there are less than 3 participants in the next higher category, your average lap times must be within 2 minutes of the winner.
This info is in a Document I wrote in March 2009 that was intended to communicate all this to the racers. The document has been updated for 2010, I am sure we can get it out to everyone this year...
We need a way to address people who do not race cup racers, or do one race and are clearly in the wrong category, how do we move them to the correct category quickly? (Specially up).
Again, we need to communicate all this stuff very soon as spring is very close.
Thanks for your input Jayson.